How Can You Possibly Know That 怞㥀˜³
QUOTE (siel @ Aug 5 2009, 05:12 PM) 
Maybe people are just getting desensitized. I mean first there was magic, then dragon, then orks, dwarves, elves, then insect spirits, and so SURGE and changeling, not to mention paracritters and other new changes and advances. To the point when you lot get to AI, people just don't care that much whatever more.
Brilliant corp propaganda or media portrayal might have helped.
While admittedly unfamiliar with SR canon, may I try i other route? What if they gain credence easier every bit long as in that location is no meatspace avatar aka android. To someone on the net, the idea that each of usa accept this kind of anonymity, thus fifty-fifty though I say I am a guy I could actually be a daughter in meat space and so on, if you lot met an AI on the matrix, would yous really know y'all met 1 or merely another matrix avatar? And if SiN are kinda like your proper name/identity expressed in numbers, doesn't that sound a bit similar an AI?
My last thought is that the AIs, maybe fifty-fifty the TMs, are just the crazy results of the terminal crash, bits and pieces of the big AIs of the past, ghosts in the machine and all that. I mean, if you lot were an AI, you would try to store copies of yourself to survive right and achieve a sort of immortality (aka kids or clones or whatever), even if you had to parcel it up?
*shrug*
Still, I find my newbie cocky agreeing with Knasser it is a disappointing for drek hot hackers/crackers/programers when Neo or Micah (Heroes boob tube prove) shows upwards, eh?
QUOTE (siel @ Aug five 2009, 08:12 PM)
Computer power did non brand quantum leaps, mayhap that would explain why well-nigh of the common that have shown up are fairly weak and take compared to those before the crash.
I have been wondering. Are there still UV hosts around? Have they been removed, downscaled, or just inverse in preference of the wireless matrix with a mesh network. How does the nature of the new wireless matrix bear upon AI?
Are people just against the idea of weaker AI in general, or against the lack of strong AI in the canon after the crash? If it'due south the latter, as far as we know, they could even so be around. If the option of drake every bit PC and being of weaker draconic form of all sort does not touch what you call up of the Great Dragon, why go bothered past weak AI?
As far equally it goes UV hosts just exist should someone decide to put them in, there are no confirmed UV hosts. This is precisely why I cannot stand up the thought of these electric current AIs. This is the primary reason why I am opposed to these current AIs, merely this is driven by the fact that I am employed in the computing industry and understand quite a bit about what has gone into developing synthetic intelligences.
Allow's accept 1 of the most well known "AIs", Deep Blue. Deep Blue, as you may or may non know, beat Kasparov in a half dozen game friction match of chess. Kasparov is a Grandmaster in Chess and arguably i of the best players in the world. One affair to note is that in preparation for a match betwixt two Grandmasters, they tin can request books of previous games fabricated by their opponent so that they may study them. At the time of this match Deep Blueish was the 259th most powerful supercomputer and it was achieving 11.38 GFLOPS. One of the reasons Deep Blue was able to beat Kasparov was due to its hardware being specifically tailored to playing chess. Deep Blue ended upward winning 3 1/two to 2 1/2 in the sixth game. Deep Blue has 4 Grandmasters contribute games to its library of games to compare to when processing what move. Then in essence, Kasparov was playing against 4 Grandmasters at once, and Kasparov was non given the library of games from which Deep Blueish was able to use as reference.
Now fast forward to modern times. The fastest supercomputers are but capable of performing at about 1/15th of the estimated processing capability of the human being encephalon. We still haven't developed an AI that can pass the Turing Test.
Now fast forrad to the 2020s and Echo Delusion. Prior to his emergence, Delusion was essentially an attack program in what may have been the well-nigh powerful bank of computing power in existence at the time, surrounded by some of the most brilliant minds on the planet. It was, arguably, a gear up of rare coincidences that led to Mirage achieving self awareness, in fact no one noticed that he became self-aware. Now this may make some people mad, but I've always felt that Mirage was more mature than Morgan/Magaera and Deus. Magaera and Deus simply feel similar children in comparing to Delusion and I doubtable this is do the the number and quality of the minds that were present and induced the cocky-awareness.
Basically, I don't feel that the disquisitional mass of computing power necessary for an AI to go self aware exists, at least not to the caste that would allow all these "AI"s to crop up. In my stance, the only manner for these new AIs to be self-aware AIs is to cantankerous that technology/magic dissever and have them come about as a magical means, only I experience that is a cop out and cheapens the whole idea that AIs should be a pinnacle of technology. I but cannot have these AIs as self-aware. At present, you tin can classify them as highly advanced personality programs that may not realize that they aren't cocky-aware, and I would accept that, merely they're non self-aware AIs.
Now if at that place are some self-aware AIs out there, they are going to be on par with the big 3 AIs, and there's going to be less than 20 of them. They're going be trapped up in the AAAs and government facilities.
I call up this thread has pretty succinctly touched on an of import problem Shadowrun has. There is almost no reason to build a generalist. There are certainly skills that everybody should take, similar the stealth group and athletics, but you operate at a signifigant disadvantage if the majority of your points across a variety of skills. I much prefer systems like Twilight 2013, where skills have the same applicable values inside "bands" of training.
If I remember my Comp-Sci correctly, Moore'south Law indicates that nosotros should have a Supercomputer capable of performing the necessary processing power (I believe the full general consensus is that the brain is capable of 100 TFLOPS) by 2020. In fact continuing on the aforementioned scale by 2070 we should exist capable of building a computer capable of pushing out the same power as the entire human being race.
That is of form dependent on Moore's Law holding true. We are rapidly approaching the limitations of semiconductor engineering science, and to perform likewise as projected we would need to of developed things such equally breakthrough processing (Which is quite likely, current enquiry shoes information technology is possible)
And and so add in the handwavium that seems to be in the Sixth World that we take achieved the perfection of Cloud based processing, and that the Matrix solitary could exist acting as a massive supercomputer that is spawning these DI's (A note, this is what I personally believe that the Deep Resonance is. The Matrix has go self aware in a very abstract style, and that it has affected everything within the Matrix as such).
EDIT: Likewise, for all we know the current explosion of DI's is an after issue of one of the original threes machinations. Deus could be behind everything that has occured, or Mirage. With the power of the SCIRE backside him Deus could easily take projected future technologies and applied certain parts of his code throughout the Matrix via his Otaku.
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug five 2009, 08:05 PM)
If I remember my Comp-Sci correctly, Moore's Police force indicates that nosotros should accept a Supercomputer capable of performing the necessary processing power (I believe the general consensus is that the encephalon is capable of 100 TFLOPS) by 2020. In fact standing on the same scale past 2070 we should be capable of building a computer capable of pushing out the aforementioned power as the entire human race.
That is of course dependent on Moore'southward Law holding true. We are rapidly approaching the limitations of semiconductor technology, and to perform as well as projected nosotros would need to of adult things such as quantum processing (Which is quite probable, current research shoes information technology is possible)
And then add in the handwavium that seems to exist in the Sixth World that we have achieved the perfection of Deject based processing, and that the Matrix lone could be acting as a massive supercomputer that is spawning these DI's (A note, this is what I personally believe that the Deep Resonance is. The Matrix has get cocky enlightened in a very abstract way, and that it has afflicted everything inside the Matrix every bit such).
EDIT: Also, for all we know the current explosion of DI's is an after effect of one of the original threes machinations. Deus could be backside everything that has occured, or Delusion. With the power of the SCIRE behind him Deus could hands have projected future technologies and applied certain parts of his code throughout the Matrix via his Otaku.
That is an interesting fashion of explaining things... I will have to think about that...
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 5 2009, 02:33 PM)
Analyze Truth, somewhat useful. If your squad mage isn't your Swiss Army Knife, what are they, a mobile semi-stealthy arms unit? If I had to pick two "types" of magic for a totem I pulled out of my hoop just based on my idea of Crunch-due north-Munch? Detection and Manipulation, hands downwards.
Observe Enemies, INCREDIBLY useful, particularly in poor visibility.
Detect Life, at high force levels is ugly. but, as they say: "Don't hate me 'cause I'm cute!"
Mind Probe, INCREDIBLY useful.
Diagnose, is your mage also your squad medic?
Catalog, you tin can't come upwards with a employ for this? Um, paydata while the decker does their affair?
Spatial Sense - Extended, combined with Detect Life, who needs penetrating radar?
Surface area Thought Recognition, "take you seen this person?" without people running or roughing you up.
Interpret, occasionally VERY handy, wouldn't you lot say?
Lol, I simply but noticed this postal service. Sure my squad mages are multifuctional and extremely powerful, but information technology isn't the spells on this listing that make them that. Those ones are crap. Aside from Detect life and Mind Probe which is totally awesome, nigh of those spells are terrible for mages, I'd rather accept Trid-D phantasm or Shape metal, or mana static or heal, or stunball, or the list goes on. Physical Mask is way cool. And they only typically start with viii spells.
So yeah, mages in my runs don't bring that stuff because those spells are bad (except detect life). FT further brings it home, because compared to WHOIS, they are all terrible.
Except detect life, and possibly mindprobe.
I hateful y'all really take mages who take full jank like diagnose and translate? Instead of Fix or Heal.
What?
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 08:36 PM)
Lol, I only just noticed this post. Certain my team mages are multifuctional and extremely powerful, but it isn't the spells on this list that make them that. Those ones are crap. Aside from Detect life and Mind Probe which is totally awesome, well-nigh of those spells are terrible for mages, I'd rather take Trid-D phantasm or Shape metallic, or mana static or heal, or stunball, or the listing goes on. Concrete Mask is mode absurd. And they only typically start with 8 spells.
So aye, mages in my runs don't bring that stuff because those spells are bad (except detect life). FT farther brings it home, because compared to WHOIS, they are all terrible.
Except detect life, and mayhap mindprobe.
I mean y'all actually take mages who have total jank like diagnose and translate? Instead of Fix or Heal.
What?
I would have these in a heartbeat... and accept....
Where do you go the Typical starting number of spells = 8? They can showtime from 2 to 14 depending upon their highest sorcery skill rating... Merely Curious... I accept started with 2 and have started with 12... depends upon the character...
*in an Ten-Wing*
"Keep on Targ- I mean Topic!"
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug five 2009, 08:48 PM)
*in an X-Wing*
"Keep on Targ- I mean Topic!"
Sorry... They came from ... Behind...
People tend to have relevant skills of 4 or 6 I've noticed. As spirits are typically amend than what yous get with your two ranks of casting stuff upwardly, I've also noticed that generally the 6 if they have it is in summoning. Thus sorcery tends to cap out at 4.
Check "In the shadows" if you'd similar.
I mean certain there are all sorts of exceptions, but in the primary well-nigh characters are limited to 8, and most of those spells don't even make the acme 15 listing, so I can legitmentally say that those spells are jank.
Knasser: I don't know if you lot're all the same reading this thread, simply I understand what you mean about Technomancer's mystical qualities degrading a theme I enjoyed in SR. I toyed with a houserule that decoupled essence and resonance and entirely removed the radio brain. More than like old school otaku.
the_real_elwood: Also like this?
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 09:09 PM)
People tend to have relevant skills of 4 or 6 I've noticed. As spirits are typically better than what you go with your 2 ranks of casting stuff up, I've also noticed that generally the 6 if they accept information technology is in summoning. Thus sorcery tends to cap out at 4.
Bank check "In the shadows" if you'd like.
I mean sure there are all sorts of exceptions, but in the principal most characters are limited to 8, and most of those spells don't even make the top 15 list, so I tin can legitmentally say that those spells are jank.
Equally for the Spells... It truly depends upon the type of mage being played... at that place are some mages that I have played that take had neither wellness Spells (no multiple passes, stat augments) or Combat Spells (no mass damage)... they were extremely fun to play and were very valuable assets to the teams that they were on... Spells are a very personal reflection of the characters that select them...
Yeah look certain, you can deliberately choose to make suboptimal choices that depower your graphic symbol. That is fine, and even your perogative. It'due south totally a absurd thing to exercise. I don't call back you should have to make yourself worse as a character to brand an RP startment though, especially because that ways 2 400BP characters can exist at dissimilar powerlevels and as GM I'm supposed to run them in the same game, but I get that is part of the basic premise.
But at the end of the day, your just taking your 3BP and setting it on fire in the name of roleplaying, or pointless duplicating someone else'south job, an item of equipment or another spell that is just better. Physical Mask is a better spell than fashion, which tin be easily replicated by buying a change of apparel.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=17805
Pinnacle 10 lists of spells. If you add upwards frequency past which they appear, Translate and notice enemies are really low downwards. I'grand not fifty-fifty sure anyone mentions diagnose. Why? Because those spells are terrible.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug v 2009, 09:45 PM)
Aye await sure, you lot can deliberately choose to brand suboptimal choices that depower your character. That is fine, and even your perogative. It'southward totally a cool thing to exercise. I don't think you should have to make yourself worse as a grapheme to make an RP startment though, specially because that means two 400BP characters can exist at different powerlevels and as GM I'thousand supposed to run them in the same game, but I get that is part of the basic premise.
But at the end of the day, your just taking your 3BP and setting information technology on burn down in the name of roleplaying, or pointless duplicating someone else'due south job, an detail of equipment or another spell that is just amend. Concrete Mask is a ameliorate spell than way, which can exist easily replicated by buying a change of dress.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/alphabetize.php?showtopic=17805
Top ten lists of spells. If you add up frequency by which they appear, Translate and notice enemies are actually low downwardly. I'm non fifty-fifty certain anyone mentions diagnose. Why? Because those spells are terrible.
Only you see... This is where we tend to differ...
I exercise not run into these choices as Sub-optimal at all..., nor do I see information technology as a depowering of the character...
I am non making a "Argument" about roleplaying or anything else for that matter as you lot claim in a higher place...
When you lot approach every obstruction with the Hammer of Gainsay Spells, y'all should prepare yourself to be on the receiving cease of hell on earth on ocassion... "I" tend to adopt a more subtle approach to the Ice Cold Professional person Mage... Why use a Powerbolt when Influence will work just fine? Yes, Concrete Mask is a Groovy Spell... but when I can alter my Tres Chichi outfit at whim with Fashion, I brand a greater stattement than I could ever do with Physical Mask, which just might non work... Permanent Physical CHANGES are preferred to Illusionary ones in a lot of circumstances... my point being, that there are a lot of ways to approach 'running than the blunt hammer approach that is "optimal" in some peoples minds...
Please don't imply that the subtle apporach is any less "optimal" than the tricked out combat mage of doom... it tends to be insulting...
I assume yous didn't read the thread I linked. The solid all time best spells top x includes maybe 1 combat spell. If you had bothered to read it, y'all'd find thinking that indicates that Combat spells are mostly rubbish.
Heck, using the criteria I but outlined, Combat Spells are freaking terrible - fireball can be replaced by a handgrenade. Mode is lame because it doesn't come up close to the pure awesome that is physical mask. Instead of stunbolt, I can apply Narcojet. Why would I spend valuable BP and irreplacable spellslots on terrible spells like that when I could go Detect Life (which gives me a start trek tri corder) or Mana Static (Which is merely so crawly it defies belief). Or Heal.
Lets take Physical mask vs fashion equally an example. Physical Mask lets me
A) Appear like someone else - classic misdirection, the guards see a 6"5 black man on the security footage, not my 5"6 asian adult female. Going to be hard to pivot me with those eyewitness accounts.
B) Appear appropriate to the function at mitt- the entire function of mode, and I can do information technology too! Okay I have to maintain the spell (sad), merely expect at the other stuff I get.
C) Doubles every bit a mad attack spell - I can seriously have an LMG slung over my back, and people simply cannot meet it. It's like an Ace upwardly your sleeve except the ace is fully automatic and fires high explosive rounds.
D) Also works as a defensive spell - At a party of 50, information technology is fifty/fifty that I am the only person who can fifty-fifty assense, thus no-one can see my body armour.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 5 2009, 09:35 PM)
No, he just described Primary Chief and Cortana.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug five 2009, 09:36 PM)
Or Ironman.
some other choice could be super force:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Force
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 5 2009, 10:07 PM)
I assume you didn't read the thread I linked. The solid all time best spells height 10 includes maybe 1 combat spell. If you had bothered to read it, you'd notice thinking that indicates that Combat spells are mostly rubbish.
Heck, using the criteria I simply outlined, Combat Spells are freaking terrible - fireball tin can be replaced past a handgrenade. Fashion is lame because it doesn't come close to the pure awesome that is physical mask. Instead of stunbolt, I tin can use Narcojet. Why would I spend valuable BP and irreplacable spellslots on terrible spells like that when I could go Discover Life (which gives me a start trek tri corder) or Mana Static (Which is but so crawly information technology defies belief). Or Heal.
Lets take Physical mask vs fashion as an case. Concrete Mask lets me
A) Appear similar someone else - classic misdirection, the guards see a 6"5 blackness man on the security footage, not my 5"6 asian woman. Going to be difficult to pin me with those eyewitness accounts.
B) Announced appropriate to the office at end - the entire function of fashion, and I can do it too! Okay I have to maintain the spell (pitiful), only look at the other stuff I become.
C) Doubles as a mad attack spell - I can seriously have an LMG slung over my back, and people just cannot see it. It'due south like an Ace upwardly your sleeve except the ace is fully automated and fires high explosive rounds.
D) Likewise works as a defensive spell - At a party of 50, it is l/50 that I am the merely person who can even assense, thus no-one can see my trunk armour.
I did read it... a couple of days ago...
And y'all just might have something penetrate the Physical Mask... Yous never know...
Concrete Mask is a good spell...
A: Certainly, what it is intended for actually...
B: Over again, Most Certainly... merely and then you lot are -two die for everything that yous do unless information technology is sustained by focus, spirit, or metamagic
C: Mad Attack Spell, not really... it functions equally a Infiltration spell, and Yes, it will allow yous to get the weapon in... But I would be willing to bet you will probably drop the spell when you commencement using the LMG to recover your two dice... so there goes all your advantages...
D: Defensive Spell... Again, not really... It allows you to muffle aspects of your existence that you wish to conceal, nil more... and yes, that is very useful...
My point was that spell choice is never "sub-optimal"... spell choice is a affair of character concept...
Yeah... any spell can be useful, and Yes, I believe that a proliferation of Combat spell in a Mages arsenal tends to lead to solving problems with said combat spells...
But because someone places a pinnacle 10 listing of spells, it does not mean that those spells are the optimal choices for every mage... Style over Substance is the cardinal to a dystopian cyberpunk/shadpwrun hereafter... and I will tend to cull my spells based upon that category over any other...
From what I tin can see, we are non really at odds here, nosotros just take different approaches to characters, and that is okay...
QUOTE
Other than observe bullshit life which is the nigh bullshit overpowered spell in the entire game, almost of a mages infomational spells are pretty medicore.
Cthulhudreams, I believe Kerenshara was addressing what yous said about how mage detection spells are crap. Not that heal or ready or the meridian ten spells from that thread aren't better.
Personally, I don't agree that those spells are utter drek considering they did non make the top 15 list of that thread. They have their uses.
I hateful you kept on saying how detect life is cleaved. Is it really? That depends on gm discretion.
QUOTE
The field of study detects all living beings (simply not spirits) inside range of the sense and knows their number and relative location. In a crowded area, the spell is nearly useless, picking up a blurred mass of traces.
According to the definition, a gm can say they pick up anything from metahuman to insects to bacteria. That wouldn't be about equally useful equally detect enemies then, would information technology? Do you actually intendance about all the people in Seattle and maybe all the critters, or do y'all intendance nearly those with hostile intentions? Of form, detect life could exist useful in other situations. It really depends on the situation. Of course, useful would not exist the same affair as must haves, just that's some other topic.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 5 2009, 09:36 PM)
Or Ironman.
I love you for this 
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Aug vi 2009, 01:31 AM)
For the life of me I cannot believe I didn't bring this upward earlier.
Magic is getting to scientific for me.
its all becoming one big blend.
BlueMax
True for me and imitation too. I recognize the fluff more and tend to personalize the Streams and Traditions more.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 03:44 AM)
As far equally information technology goes UV hosts just be should someone decide to put them in, there are no confirmed UV hosts. This is precisely why I cannot stand up the thought of these current AIs. ...*snip*... They're going be trapped up in the AAAs and authorities facilities.
Well, there are UV Hosts, Unwired states information technology.
And practise you consider Deep Bluish an AI? I mean... Chess... is non really a genius sport, you lot accept to memorize things and that's just somethign a figurer does. He tin play through all possible moves in a thing of seconds. That'due south well-nigh it. There is no creative thinking or problem solving needed for a computer to play Chess. Or did something change since my Chess days?
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 09:45 AM)
I beloved you for this
My pleasure ^^
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug half dozen 2009, 02:45 AM)
Well, there are UV Hosts, Unwired states information technology.
And practice yous consider Deep Blue an AI? I mean... Chess... is not really a genius sport, y'all have to memorize things and that's just somethign a computer does. He tin can play through all possible moves in a matter of seconds. That'south about it. There is no creative thinking or problem solving needed for a reckoner to play Chess. Or did something change since my Chess days?
Depends on whether your going by the technical definition of AI or the hollywood definition.
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 02:45 AM)
Well, in that location are UV Hosts, Unwired states it.
And do yous consider Deep Blue an AI? I mean... Chess... is non really a genius sport, yous accept to memorize things and that'south merely somethign a computer does. He tin play through all possible moves in a matter of seconds. That'southward about it. At that place is no creative thinking or problem solving needed for a computer to play Chess. Or did something change since my Chess days?
I'll accept to wait through Unwired, but I don't expect them to be common. Like I said, I would believe them bars to AAAs and government facilities, I wouldn't expect any UV hosts to just exist open access and would certainly expect any that be to be locked down pretty tight.
Deep Blue is a chess AI, and it replicated how the human Grandmaster's play. They study games over and over and they are capable of looking ahead effectually 12 moves to anticipate how the board is likely to expect afterward whatsoever given move. This is precisely what Deep Blue did, it creature forced every possible combination X moves into the futurity for a potential move, a favorable outcome getting a positive value. Once information technology finished running through every move that it could brand, it chose the one that had the highest favorable outcome rating. In chess applications the AI difficulty is a function of how many moves into the futurity the AI tin look. You may non remember Chess is a genius sport, but show indicates otherwise. Children who are taught chess tend to have potent minds than those that don't. Chess teaches a number of mental activities including memorization. Grandmasters also don't perceive the chessboard in the aforementioned fashion that you and I probable do. You and I, nosotros probably perceive the whole chess lath visually. That's not how Grandmasters perceive information technology. They have a far more abstract view of the board, it'southward closer to how a reckoner who perceive the board when deciding how favorable an outcome is. This is precisely why the chess AI was one of the first ones developed, the best of the human minds perceived it in a manner that was similar to how a figurer to simulate it.
Trying to perceive something in a visual fashion in your mind is a slow and cumbersome process, being able to abstract it allows information technology to run more than efficiently and apace. Why is this relevant? Well UV hosts are described as being a true virtual environment. Everything is a visual representation rather than an abstract one. The individuals who coined the term and requirements may not have realized it, but they have really narrowed the processing power for an AI to be. Just because the UV environment is designed to exist visual doesn't hateful that an AI in the environment has to perform its logic visually, it could merely hum along quietly in an abstract fashion, and in fact would likely practice so to be able to compensate for the number of human intelligences using the UV host. So a system which was powerful enough to provide a true visual environs for humans to interact provided the necessary abstract computing ability that would let an AI to emerge under the appropriate stimuli.
I take no reason to accept these AI characters in Shadowrun as sentient and self-aware AIs. They are, at all-time, highly intelligence programs and may very well think that they are self-aware and sentient, but are in fact non.
QUOTE (shuya @ Aug five 2009, 01:53 AM)
wait, why non? exercise you REALLY believe that a encephalon isn't capable of creating meaning out of a string of symbols? because i, and the words that i am writing this post with, would argue to the ends of the earth otherwise. if people can write machine code, they would have to by necessity exist able to sympathise it, wouldn't they?
Have you always tried to read a plan written in binary code? With dynamic resource allotment of memory? Dissimilar type of variables (just remember how the same lawmaking can mean dissimilar things if nosotros speack of unsigned integrs, signed integers and floating indicate variables; and we are simply speaking of numbers)? With the significant changing over time?
Also I would similar to point out that when you write you employ a much college level of astraction, and a much larger set of symbols, the binary code is based simply on the presence or absence of electricity, it's a raw true or imitation that is fed to a circuit that combines it with other true o simulated to spit out yet other true or false, what determines the result is the physical structure of the microchip, then in order to know the pregnant of a string of ones and zeros y'all take to know how the chip works (it was done at the very starting time of the history of informatics, with the assembler; and there's a reason if other programming lenguages have been developed afterward). Lets face it, man brain, for all the marvel that information technology is, is only non wired for raw matematical processing (otherwise explicate me why would we need computers in first place), it but works in a different way.
And to answer to your question nigh writing machine code, do you REALY thing that programmers wirte automobile lawmaking? Or maybe they write text files in a format that can be translated in motorcar code past a program chosen compiler?
By the manner ....... what's this?
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QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug 6 2009, 06:56 AM)
By the manner ....... what's this?
A PNG picture file.
QUOTE
‰PNG
IHDR z H ix��B pHYs šœ cHRM z% €ƒ �� €� u0 �` :˜ o'_�F .�
That's the header information for the file.
The remainder is the the file for the data starting with the IDAT, I think. I don't retrieve if PNG files typically have anything beyond the file header and the data. One thing I noticed that wasn't in there was the Terminate for the data. I wonder if that's actually required for the PNG file to properly display...
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 5 2009, 01:57 AM)
i know sure freaks that may not really be able to actually READ it, but they are able to understand both binary and hexadecimal . . not able to give out word by word translation, but more or less able to become the full general gist and meaning of something . . merely from looking at it . . yep, i call them freaks, and i feel i am immune to do and then, because they are buddies of mine <.<
Knowing which type of file before mitt right?
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug half dozen 2009, 02:02 PM)
A PNG picture file.
True........... Which?
QUOTE (cREbralFIX @ Aug v 2009, 04:34 AM)
Shadowrun is conspicuously moving into Earthdawn territory.
TM's are only an expression of the "Magic equally Technology" theme prevalent in Earthdawn.
I'm not really excited about going downward the road of Earthdawn. It'll probably brand for a good story, merely...it's not SR. It's already been done and SR needs to keep moving into new areas.
I adopt more of a techno-punk globe with magic existence less prevalent. I like to make mages more rare, which increases their value. I'd rather see a higher percentage of Hackers over magically active characters in a story.
To address Resonance versus Magic: they'll merge together. It's clear the developers are going that road. I tin certainly meet a time where the "Haves" are those magically agile people who can interact with technology. Nothing like a Mark 17 Blaster in the xxx gigawatt range powered by mana! Need that blaster to shoot ice? No problem! The power cells will amplify the magical result, acting like a Magic 12 instead of your PC's v. Anyhow, this coincides with Earthdawn's Theran empire where elven mages ruled the enslaved masses.
Merely, that won't happen in my game. I'll merely back off on that in favor of a more techno-punk story.
Feel the same.
heh, got to dearest the random smiley that showed up in that jumble 
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug 6 2009, 07:04 AM)
Truthful........... Which?
No idea, I can't read that and tell you what the picture shows. I copied the text into a bare file and made it a PNG and got zippo. So either at that place'south important parts missing, some of the characters didn't interpret well, or it'southward just a bunch of junk. I do not know.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 6 2009, 12:03 PM)
Depends on whether your going by the technical definition of AI or the hollywood definition.
Equally far every bit i know - y'all may right me, i beg you lot - the current definition divides between "weak" and "stiff" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Bluish, non Self-Aware or able to think outsides information technology's box. The potent AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, creative, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that's what i learned almost RL AI research on the net, as i stated, please right me if you lot encounter a error.
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 07:41 AM)
As far as i know - you may right me, i beg y'all - the current definition divides betwixt "weak" and "strong" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Blue, not Self-Aware or able to think outsides it's box. The strong AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, artistic, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that'due south what i learned about RL AI research on the net, as i stated, please correct me if you lot see a mistake.
That is correct. Equally far as I'm concerned the merely Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 02:14 PM)
No idea, I can't read that and tell you what the picture shows. I copied the text into a blank file and made it a PNG and got nothing. And then either there's important parts missing, some of the characters didn't interpret well, or it's just a bunch of junk. I do non know.
That'due south the DumpShock logo from the upper left corner of the page ........ mayhap it's due those blasted
Anyhow I've just saved it, opened information technology with notepad and copied the text.
QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Aug 6 2009, 02:41 PM)
Every bit far as i know - you may correct me, i beg you lot - the current definition divides between "weak" and "strong" AI. The weak AI is something like Deep Blue, not Self-Aware or able to think outsides information technology's box. The stiff AIs are those Fiction looks for. Selfaware, creative, personality, maybe even emotions?
At least that's what i learned about RL AI enquiry on the net, as i stated, please right me if you lot encounter a mistake.
another mode to sort them are "expert system" and "AI", as a expert system will be one thats highly adept at performing a specific task (like playing chess).
i call up reading about neural nets being trained to tell moles from cancer, just trying to utilize the aforementioned neural net for annihilation else and you could simply likewise toss a coin...
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 01:46 PM)
That is correct. As far as I'm concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Delusion/Deus/Magaera.
Why? From what has occured in the Sixth World since the Emergance information technology is clear that the DI'due south are for all purposes Sentient/Sapient. They about certainly pass the Turing Test. They have been noted to exist concerned for their own survival and act to increase the chances of that survival. They act in their own self interest, and have begun to create their own "Tribal" communities. They have shown inventiveness and the ability to motility abroad from their original coding. They take shown the ability to learn both about the Matrix Virtual World and the Real World, then use that knowledge to interact with both in a style that is beneficial. If they are capable of all that they are certainly capable of looking in a mirror and agreement that what they are looking at is themselves (A exam used on some primates to decide sentience.) What other variables practise y'all desire to be fulfilled earlier you lot would consider them Sapient?
Again, I can see no reason that a true AI is non possible by 2070. The processing power virtually certainly exists inside a single unit (And over again, then you throw in the possibility of Cloud Based processing which furthers that power to a huge amount). A "Strong" AI has been shown to be possible in the case the original three, and since then the abilities of cocky adapting software has certainly increased, as well as the capabilities of every day devices. And as also noted earlier there is the possibility that these DI's are the work of i of those original 3. Deus just exists because Maegera was ripped to shreds. Peradventure when they all fought it out during the Crash i of them saw what was coming and acted to prevent the extinction of their "species" and threw out parts of its code in the hopes that something would spark a new being.
We do not know enough about the origins of these DIs to come to any conclussions really. But I practice hope that the Devs do non but cop out and say "Great Spirit is backside all the Matrix Stuff!". They still take more than than enough avenues to bring information technology back to a technological singularity.
(And Mirage/Deus/Magaera are the simply AI's that we know nigh. Those are the only ones that came into contact with Shadowrunners in a meaningful style and created a large enough wave. Others could hands of stayed subconscious if they had wanted to (Mirage managed information technology for over 30 years, merely I guess a fair few of those was sitting in some abandoned warehouse in a Last). The AI that might be in the Nexus is one example)
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 02:46 PM)
That is correct. As far every bit I'grand concerned the just Shadowrun AIs that have been strong AIs were Mirage/Deus/Magaera.
lets non forget that there was a sub-AI running around in SR3, the SK, or semi-democratic knowbot...
hell, it was hinted that these knowbots was what the AI's spawned from.
in SR4, it seems that the agents and drone pilots may well have "evolved" into SK similar territory...
btw, the metasapient is just 1 variant of AI running round in SR4...
there is likewise the xenosapient and protosapient.
1 sounds very much like a government worker in software form, while the other a wild creature...
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Aug 6 2009, 09:07 AM)
That's the DumpShock logo from the upper left corner of the page ........ maybe it's due those blasted
Anyway I've just saved it, opened it with notepad and copied the text.
I just did the aforementioned thing, equally an do in fun I did a comparison between what you pasted as characters to the saved file....
The saved file is 2F2008 (3,088,392) bytes long.
The text you lot pasted is 2FC00E (3,129,358) bytes long.
I've noticed first off that the IEND characters that are at the end of every PNG file were lacking in your pasted version. I'one thousand thinking that some of the copied text didn't copy correctly when put into the web....
AFAIK, Morgana was an SK (before she transformed to Morgana), Deus was a highly sophisticated SK or Expert System with parts of Morgana und Mirage was the kickoff ever conceived SK, AFAIK also.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 02:46 PM)
That is right. Equally far equally I'm concerned the only Shadowrun AIs that accept been strong AIs were Delusion/Deus/Magaera.
This is for you to make up one's mind. I miss those iii also, but by the Strong/Weak definition, AIs similar Pulse or Sojourner are strong in my eyes. Even the Ferals and Xenos.
I think all the AIs called AIs in SR4 come across the criteria for Potent AI. I think weak AI are things similar Agents or Knowsofts. Subsequently all, if it can requite you the skill to perform surgery on a patient, airplane pilot a airplane from one city to some other, merchandise stocks, etc., that's Weak AI.
By the way, I think I can encounter the topic from here.
Thou.
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug 6 2009, 09:eighteen AM)
Why? From what has occured in the Sixth World since the Emergance it is clear that the DI'due south are for all purposes Sentient/Sapient. They almost certainly pass the Turing Test. They have been noted to be concerned for their own survival and act to increase the chances of that survival. They act in their own self interest, and have begun to create their own "Tribal" communities. They have shown creativity and the ability to move away from their original coding. They have shown the ability to learn both nearly the Matrix Virtual World and the Real Earth, and then employ that noesis to interact with both in a way that is benign. If they are capable of all that they are certainly capable of looking in a mirror and understanding that what they are looking at is themselves (A test used on some primates to determine sentience.) What other variables do you desire to be fulfilled before you would consider them Sapient?
Again, I can run into no reason that a true AI is not possible past 2070. The processing power well-nigh certainly exists inside a single unit of measurement (And again, then you throw in the possibility of Cloud Based processing which furthers that power to a huge corporeality). A "Stiff" AI has been shown to exist possible in the case the original 3, and since then the abilities of cocky adapting software has certainly increased, also every bit the capabilities of every mean solar day devices. And every bit also noted earlier at that place is the possibility that these DI's are the work of one of those original three. Deus just exists considering Maegera was ripped to shreds. Perhaps when they all fought it out during the Crash ane of them saw what was coming and acted to prevent the extinction of their "species" and threw out parts of its code in the hopes that something would spark a new existence.
No, you've misunderstood my argument. The problem is that these AIs are somehow "weaker" yet they still just "sprung" into beingness similar the big three is the issue. There is testify there is a need for a critical mass of contiguous computing power for an AI to emerge and become cocky-enlightened. If this contiguous critical mass was not required, then this new classification of digital intelligence would have been cropping upward prior to the second matrix crash due to the amount of computing power available in the starting time matrix. Once the intelligence has emerged then there's cipher keeping information technology from fracturing itself to run using a deject computing method.
There's only a couple of acceptable logical explanations for DIs.
ane. These are strong AIs just there were entirely developed by metahumans, they are non emergent and did not spontaneously come into existence.
2. These are Not strong AIs but are highly advanced intelligence programs.
3. Magicky handwaivery.
I have a hard fourth dimension agreeing with #one because if that were the instance, there would be show that would signal to that.
#3 irritates me because information technology helps that whole concept that the Matrix is become to magicky and narrows the divergence between engineering and magic.
nah, thats simply a fata morgana...
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 6 2009, 03:22 PM)
nah, thats just a fata morgana...
waka waka
How can a play on words be and so clever and so terrible at the same time? 
That. Was. Awful! 
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 09:44 AM)
waka waka
How can a play on words be so clever and so terrible at the same fourth dimension?
That. Was. Awful!
"Hay! Kermaaaaat!" "Yeah, Fozzie?" "Wanna hear my new joke?" "Um, I sort of need to be going-" "Oh, come up on, come in, it's great!" "Mmmmmgh, ok Fozzie I guess..." "OK... [Insert Lamest Joke Y'all Know, here]" *from the balcony* "Merely you didn't pay for the ticket!" "I know!" "Ah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!"
"Waka waka!"
"That was so bad, I want my money dorsum!"
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 04:44 PM)
waka waka
How can a play on words be and so clever and and so terrible at the same time?
That. Was. Awful!
the worst part, it was non intended equally such. Only now that its pointed out, i run across it...
but then i keep dropping comments that could get a nun blushing, and i need to be told what the issue is...
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug half dozen 2009, 04:35 PM)
the worst office, it was not intended as such. Only now that its pointed out, i encounter it...
Really? That'southward a great shame. The hurting was just mitigated for me by respect for your ability to make Latin puns that worked on multiple levels. Ah well, I shall simply pretend it was deliberate.
@Kerenshara: Those two quondam guys were my favourite!
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 6 2009, 09:01 AM)
I think all the AIs called AIs in SR4 run across the criteria for Potent AI. I think weak AI are things similar Agents or Knowsofts. Afterward all, if it can requite you lot the skill to perform surgery on a patient, pilot a plane from one city to some other, trade stocks, etc., that'southward Weak AI.
By the way, I think I can see the topic from here.
M.
I'll put forth there are AI's all over the place. Heck fifty-fifty now in RL there are AI's (call back of all those bots in a beginning person shooter). In any event-what the real question is if the AI is self sentient or not.
Basically you have a few categories of AI's in SR4:
Simple AIs: Agents-that don't practise anythin that is off the script or beyond their programming or what a user tells them to do.
Feral AI: Independent funtioning program that tends to act on simply a survival instinct just. Has no means or capability to talk to others, though it will react to the presence of other matrix entities. Unremarkably hostile.
Civilized AI-Independent and capable of enough total meta-man thought. Note that this does not meant information technology thinks like a human, equally its perception tin can be radically different.
God/dragon like AI-Ante, Delusion, Morgan that had mental capabilities beyond a meta-human being.
Now for sprites:
Controlled Sprites are AI's that formed by random code dissonance that TM manipulates and puts together.
Free sprites-Matrix equivielnt of Free spirits. They vary in adequacy from dumb as a post to dragon like intelligence.
Yes-I accept noticed that they took the matrix and gave your the option of a street sam (hacker) or mage ™. Though early on TM'due south have information technology harder early on, a hacker information technology seems has a harder fourth dimension improving oneself. At that place is the Good option (since mages and adepts can employ AR and VR without penalisation in 4E)
Anyone who has ever played Street Fighter 2, knows that Chiliad. Bison was a frickin' AI.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 6 2009, 10:13 AM)
No, you've misunderstood my argument. The problem is that these AIs are somehow "weaker" withal they however just "sprung" into existence like the big three is the outcome. There is prove there is a demand for a critical mass of contiguous computing power for an AI to emerge and become cocky-aware. If this contiguous critical mass was not required, and then this new classification of digital intelligence would have been cropping up prior to the 2d matrix crash due to the corporeality of computing power bachelor in the first matrix. Once the intelligence has emerged so in that location's nothing keeping it from fracturing itself to run using a cloud computing method.
There's only a couple of adequate logical explanations for DIs.
i. These are stiff AIs merely at that place were entirely developed by metahumans, they are not emergent and did non spontaneously come up into existence.
two. These are Non strong AIs just are highly advanced intelligence programs.
three. Magicky handwaivery.
I have a hard fourth dimension agreeing with #i considering if that were the case, there would exist testify that would indicate to that.
#3 irritates me considering it helps that whole concept that the Matrix is become to magicky and narrows the difference between engineering science and magic.
So you are saying, 'real' AI like deus require a tremendous calculating power. Post crash computer system that the new AI/DI are on does not have such computing ability. If new AI/DI can exist on the calculating power from the mail service crash computer system, then they should have existed in the pre crash reckoner system.
Still, pre-crash AI/DI might not have existed due to software consequence, not hardware effect. We know that AI and Morgana required a spark. We could see that every bit a requirement on the software side. Other nodes with tremendous calculating ability exists, but the potential DI/AI didn't accept the spark. Not to mention Deus would probably have assimilated any that did to remove competition.
So, I can take a theory (or points/ideas) below:
i. It requires tremendous computing power to have the emergent of the spark (or lawmaking) that makes an AI sentient occur spontaneously.
2. Once the spark is obtained, information technology does non require the same tremendous computing ability to keep the sentience.
(This is because you aren't trying to write code that metahuman never wrote. An example would exist Deus got out of the arcology, put himself together, and is still sentient.)
3. Tremendous computing power, however, permit AI to be the uber AI that Deus and Morgana were.
four. Post Crash and Pre Crash both had plenty of computers with enough power to allow sentient AI (but not generate sentient AI).
five. Post Crash AI/DI caused the spark during the Crash.
(This might have occurred for whatever reason. Mayhap the AI didn't want to die, they rather pass on their 'genes' like someone else said earlier than to simply perish abroad. Maybe Deus was hoping that his conscious would remain and he tin continue whatever he was doing.)
half-dozen. Postal service Crash AI/DI take computing power enough for sentience, together with spark, AI/DI tin can be.
vii. Without UV host or tremendous calculating power, the AI/DI can't exist uber like Deus.
(And once you give AI/DI high rating computer organisation and a lot of karma, they will exist uber
Anyway, just a possible interpretation. I am not a master of all the shadowrun history and is very probable to have gotten something wrong. I felt like this allows for the explanation of AI/DI without 'hey it's magical. Magic came to matrix and out comes AI.' Besides, with the little we know of what happened to Deus and Morgana, what is to say that they aren't secretly manipulating the matrix. Zippo stops them from being the technology side of a Corking Dragon just because little drakes and dragon like AI/DI appeared. 
QUOTE (siel @ Aug 6 2009, 02:53 PM)
I hateful you lot kept on saying how detect life is cleaved. Is it really? That depends on gm discretion.
According to the definition, a gm tin say they pick up anything from metahuman to insects to bacteria. That wouldn't exist nearly equally useful as detect enemies then, would it? Do you really intendance about all the people in Seattle and possibly all the critters, or do you care about those with hostile intentions? Of course, notice life could be useful in other situations. Information technology really depends on the situation. Of form, useful would non be the same thing every bit must haves, but that'due south some other topic.
Did yous read the example? The example says that the spell tells you
A) Who is waiting for you
B) What they are doing
C) What they are thinking
It is just amazing and seriously just direct up and down ameliorate than many of the other spells in the game. Find enemies is, for example, a total joke compared to detect life.
But Siel, you demand to empathise oppotunity costs. If you practise X, and didn't do Y, the cost is not merely whatever yous got from X, bu what you missed out from in Y. Look, If I requite you ii choices
1) I requite you 4 billion dollars
2) I give you lot iv million dollars
no strings attached etc etc. While in the accented 2 is good, considering it gives you lot 4 million dollars which is dandy, it still a bad choice because y'all just turned down the opportunity to get 4 billion dollars.
Taking detect enemies is rubbish and notice enemies is a jank spell because you are turning down an opportunity to take something from the top 15 list. If there are fifteen spells that are improve than detect enemies, and you can only take 12 spells, taking detect enemies is e'er a bad selection.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug half-dozen 2009, 05:56 PM)
Did you read the instance? The example says that the spell tells yous
A) Who is waiting for you
B) What they are doing
C) What they are thinking
It is just amazing and seriously just straight upwards and downward better than many of the other spells in the game. Discover enemies is, for example, a total joke compared to detect life.
Simply Siel, you need to understand oppotunity costs. If you practise Ten, and didn't practice Y, the toll is not but whatever y'all got from Ten, bu what you lot missed out from in Y. Expect, If I give you 2 choices
1) I give you 4 billion dollars
2) I give yous 4 one thousand thousand dollars
no strings attached etc etc. While in the absolute two is good, considering it gives you 4 meg dollars which is great, it still a bad choice because y'all but turned downwards the opportunity to get four billion dollars.
Taking detect enemies is rubbish and discover enemies is a jank spell considering you are turning down an opportunity to take something from the top fifteen list. If in that location are 15 spells that are meliorate than discover enemies, and you can merely take 12 spells, taking detect enemies is e'er a bad choice.
I say that information technology still depends upon your character and his objectives...
Observe Life is great, except that it does exactly that... DETECT LIFE... Me, I actually practice not care about everythign effectually me that is alive, which is going to potentially be a VERY LARGE number of living things... Detect Enemies does JUST that... Detects those who have a directed intent to harm me...
Observe Enemies is more than Immediately useful than Detect Life in a lot of circumstances...
They are both practiced spells... very different uses though...
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